Would you like Tezos to be distributed rightly among generations?


#42

They may didnt call it socialism at the time of Herodotus, but socialism was always there , of couse schrinked.

Socialism is when you care about the poor and incompetent of your society, and you want to feed them and take care of them, despite they dont deserve it (in survival and natural choice terms)


#43

it odd you use that definition. because now that we have capitalism here, capitalism has helped untold millions of more people than the ‘schrinked socialism’ ever did in the history of the world.

do you seriously think the roman oligarchy/republic/empire giving “bread and circuses” to the mob was socialism???


#44

Yes, giving “bread and circuses” to the mob on a regular basis was a socialist gesture. Limited socialism of course within the bounds of the city of Rome. Because socialism nowdays has (also) an international meaning. At the days of Rome it was a national (or even better you may call it an urban) socialism.

Being a capitalist does not prevent for you to behave socialistic some times. Coins have always two sides, and persons have more than one faces. Socialist is the one who cares about the poor and incompetent of his society. Of course society may be defined in different contexts, the community context, the city context, the national context, or the international.

And of course socialism necessarily has yet another property. Socialism ought to be regulated, ought to be performed on a regular basis. Otherwise it is not socialism, it is a charity. So if you bind to the obligation of giving charities, then you are a socialist. If you want to remain free to give or not to give charities, then you cannot be named a socialist.

In the middle of this, my proposal stands. Vote the numbers dynamicaly, decide the amount you wish to give as basic income. So you dont bind to the amount, the amount is adaptive and depends on the numerical voting, but you bind to the procedure of voting the amount (from zero Tezos to whatever).


#45

So here is my proposal. Adaptive basic income.

It is similar to the adaptive proposal fee, initialy proposed in dash forum.

Did you got my point? No?
ok , let me use the template :slight_smile:

Introduction

As many of you know, there has been much discussion regarding the current amount that should be given as basic income. Although 10 Tezos was rejected, the debate clearly divided opinion.

The original 5 Tezos amount for basic income was introduced as a mechanism to welcome new members to the tezos community. To date, this has worked relatively successfully. However, the current US dollar price of Tezos is leading some people to question if the amount is stifling progress. Some Tezoers believe the small basic income acts as a filter and prevents for the tezos communtiy to be overflowed by ignorants or incompetents.

Personally, although I favour a higher basic income, I fully appreciate both sides of this argument. With this in mind, I am proposing what I believe to be a fair and sustainable solution.

Note: To help those unfamiliar, this proposal also includes a brief explanation of how median averages work and why it’s well suited for this particular problem.

(This solution is using the median average, not the mean average! See explanation below)

Do I have to continue?
If there is someone who dont understand what I am talking about, I will explain it further.


#46

Yet another misconception here.
Money is not a property , it is a convention.
In order for money to become a property, it always depends on the acceptance of the others.


#47

So far the others accept


#48

@Demo, honestly, I think your intentions are noble, but your means to achieve them undesirable.

Tezos is not the world’s government. It’s a currency. A medium of exchange. Not responsible of feeding the masses. The responsibility lies within the realms of a government! Progressive taxation! What about all the poor souls who can’t even afford to buy one Tezos. Aren’t they first in line to receive?

I think so. :wink:


#49

@demo, I’m happy to set up an oven that accepts donations of currency directed to enhancing the effectiveness of this charity:
The life you can save - We’ve identified outstanding charities that will make sense to both your head and your heart.

Tithing comes to mind.


#50

Space-time asymmetry relates to theoretical physics. Please do not complicate matters.

Adaptive Proposal Fees is a proposal on the Dash forum to reduce spam. It has nothing to do with inter-generational coin redistribution.


#51

@demo
Why don’t you give some unborn child part of or maybe all your tezos.
Think about it! Take your time!
Where to begin? Look for the baby in a fertility clinic?
The past creates the future and right now the present is out of control.:wink:


#52

So Demo
If go through this test, what would you be selecting as answers for each of these:

Q1) How much should a worker be paid?
a) On a sliding scale depending on how important his work is to society
b) Enough to support his family
c) Just enough to keep him from quitting.
Q2) How much should a business charge for its products?
a) Just enough to cover expenses
b) Enough to keep employment high in the industry
c) The highest price it can.
Q3) If you are a car producer, how many deaths should your product cause per year?
a) Zero of course!
b) Obviously, as few as possible – the goal should be to make cars the safest form of transportation
c) Whatever number of deaths makes your firm the most money
Q4) You’re hiring a receptionist. One applicant is efficient and the other is gorgeous. Which should you choose?
a) The efficient one
b) the gorgeous one
c) Hire the gorgeous one if she attracts enough extra business to compensate for her inefficiency, otherwise hire the efficient one.

I’m c for all 4 - and you only need 3 out of 4 to be a capitalist pig.


#53

Who are you, Demo? Are you the developer or manager of Tezos Fund?
who are you represent for?

  1. You said that Tezos is to “compete the current worldwide monetary system”, How dare you write words like that! Tezos is now hardly born, you are saying that it is going to be the king of the future? Do you know how many block-chain asset are there that Tezos is going to compete? I have stake in Tezos, I am even worried about its actual value in future. Tezos, its value can be ZERO if it can not provide and prove actual usage for people. And now, you are looking it as REAL MONEY. How? Why people shall abandon all other superb block-chain asset and accept Tezos as Real Money? Think about ETH, ETC, LTC, ANS, Qtum, and on and on and on.
    On the other hand, will majority people really accept block-chain asset as REAL MONEY? Think about BTC, how strong is BTC, its still get rejected by USA and CHINA, the two most powerful country in the world. Will they reject BTC as real money and accept XTZ specifically? Why? What’s the logic?
  2. While you can not even prove the value of Tezos, and you are now worrying about how the future generation could enjoy the value of it?
  3. What actual service Tezos can provide, what problem can it solve? Smart contract? the concept had already been established for years, how many actual business contract are executed by Smart Contract? oh, I guess you are going to say ICO. Its a joke for Smart Contract.
  4. How many days you’ve launched this vote? How many people voted? Will the number of voters base (members/users of Tezos) give you some clue to wake your dream?
  5. Shall your first dream be that, Tezos become REAL MONEY for 2017/2018 generation? Shall it at first be accepted by 2017/2018 generation? How are you going to make it true?

Suggest that forget the idea that people in the world will accept Tezos as Real Money. To start all dreams, at first input some real value into Tezos, and look for some idea that could prevent investor’s money in Tezos project from becoming Zero.

Wish you Good luck,


#55

It also refers to an economic theory, the Relative Theory of Money.

“Adaptive proposal fee” is part of a general theory of numerical voting (that is currently investigated by the mathematician Pietro Speroni)

We vote numbers and we extract the result as an average.
In the specific implementation of the adaptive proposal fee, everyone votes the fee as a number and we extract the result using the median average.

What I am proposing is everyone who has voting rights to vote the total amount of the basic income that the Tezos community wants to give, and then extract the result as the median average.


#56

As value goes up large stake holders will sell to a new generation. That generation will sell a portion to the next. Not sure you can force even distribution without turning it into some kind of government forced unlimited supply handout like the USD which is the opposite of what is meant to be accomplished.


#57

Nope.

I represent the future Tezos generations, not yet born.

Because Tezos’s ambition is to become a self-amendment Nomic Bank. No other coin has such ambition.
Additionaly Tezos is using OCaml, a very promissing language. Furthermore, you may read what I think about Tezos (it was written back in 2016):


#58

@demo
Thank you.
I appreciate your info: “Space-time asymmetry” refers to “Relative Theory of Money”.

I don’t appreciate, this quote from the preface of “Relative Theory of Money”:
“The « Universal Dividend system », which the author proposes, is a monetary system in which the money is uniformly distributed between all the actors, individuals of all age or sex, any one of them receiving an equal part.”

Let’s agree, we have different opinions of how to keep generations of people happy. :heart: :denmark: :norway: :sweden:


#59

@demo
Thank you for the info.


#60

Me neither. Thats why I am proposing to vote the numbers, and not to uniformly distribute money between all the actors.

You have different opinion, you want no universal dividend at all. And another Tezos community member has different opinion, he wants to uniformly distribute money between all the actors. And I have a different opinion, my opinion is in between your opinion and the second person’s opinion. And another tezos community member has a different opinion, in between my opinion and your opinion.

How do we solve all that mess?

  1. Dictatorship?
  2. Tyranny of the majority? And what kind of majority? The “greatest part” majority or the “more than a half” majority?
  3. Or maybe, shall tezos community split in two parts?
  4. Or maybe split the community in four parts?
  5. Or maybe shall we vote the numbers and extract the result as an average?

What do you propose as solution? You have to decide what opinion should be the dominant one. You have to answer the above questions, and propose a specific method in order for the dominant decision to be able to appear.
It is not possible at the same time both to have and not to have a universal dividend in tezos. You are not allowed NOT to answer the above 5 questions.
Unless of course you choose the dictatorship option.:face_with_raised_eyebrow:


#61

My answer to all five questions are:
I leave it to The Development Team, Dynamic Ledger Solutions and The Tezos Foundation.

I’m confident they are a lot smarter than I.

Do you agree, yes or no?


#62

No.
This is dictatorship.