Would you like Tezos to be distributed rightly among generations?


#21

Yes of course, decentralized crypto currencies are definitely great, everybody here should agree with this. Thats the reason we are here, talking in this very forum. :smile:


#22

Blah blah blah!!! Too much politics for this thread!!!


#24

What is a state agent. Can you provide an example?


#25

I think it is about time to inject a healthy dose of E O Wilson. Biology is the ultimate system of which we can learn many lessons.


#26

You can call it an agent of the state. He is someone who receives salary from the state and acts in favor of the state. A state employee, who often belongs to the secret services.


#27

There are no US state agents as you describe. What country are they from?


#28

How do you know that? You never know who funded Tezos.
Behind those 65,697 bitcoins and 361,122 Eth, you never know who is hiding.
You will only have a clue about it, if you decide to implement a proof of individuality and you keep the history of the votes of the individuals. The agents of the states may hold unlimited money, but they are not unlimited, as individuals.


#29

Your question doesn’t make sense to me.

Presently all generations alive can buy Tezos If they can afford it.
That’s a true statement.

These generations will die and future generations will inevitably become owners of Tezos if Tezos exists.
That’s a true statement.


#30

And another true statement is that in future the holders of Tezos will be the descendants, heirs and friends of the people who hold tezos today. This is an asymmetry both in time and in space.

And another true statement is that this asymmetry will result the lack of faith for Tezos, and as long as the future digital currency relies on faith, this will cause the decline of Tezos.

Hopefully the future generations will no be stupid, and they will not accept to be enslaved to the money that a few people from this generation created.

But there is still hope for Tezos if you invest in the stupidification of the future generations and you provide special designed stupefactive education. This is what the generation who defined the gold/silver standard did to the people , and for 3000 years there was a great percentage of people who believed in the gold/silver standard and used gold/silver as their medium of exchange, without being forced intensively.


#31

Your first statement is false, if Tezos will be sold on exchanges to customers that not necessarily are descendants, heirs and friends of the people who bought tezos in the ICO.

Your second statement is false if your first statement is false.


#32

And to how many customers will be sold? And who will benefit from the sale? Obviously the current holders of tezos, their friends, descendands and heirs. The fact that tezos can be sold, this does not solve the inherent and initial time and space asymmetry of the coin.

Suppose someone owns all the gold mines on earth and gold becomes the unique medium of exchange. Even if he starts sellng from his gold reserves in exchange of products and services, almost surely he and his descendants/heirs will always be rich. Those who do not own gold mines, it is on their benefit to refuse gold as a medium of exchange.

Refusing tezos as their medium of exchange is also what a smart new generation will do, if you insist that tezos should be time and space asymmetric. And of course if tezos is not ment to be adopted by future generations, it has no hope of being the digital currency of the future , thus it is not wise to invest on it in long term.

What is the solution to all this?

Introduce a basic income that will cure the inherent time and space asymmetry. You may not cure it tottaly like duniter coin suggests, but you may reduce the bad impacts of asymmetry by deciding to give on a regular basis an adaptive amount of tezos as basic income. That way you will remain relatively rich, but you will also keep satisfied the future generations and everyone else who didnt participate to the tezos initial distribution.

Remember that the ultimate goal of every money object is to be accepted by as many people as possible as their medium of exchange. If you forget this goal, tezos will be transformed to an ordinary store of value , and it will become a pathetic collectible item, like bitcoins, stamps, diamonds or bottle caps are.


#33

Tezos can only be valuable as a network if it scrupulously respects property rights. I personally do not see this as being compatible with any notion of “redistributive justice”, be it intergenerational or not.


#34

@demo
I expect that very few people would go to work, get paid, invest in Tezos, just to have the Tozos redistributed. I certainly wouldn’t.
Therefore, I think that implementing your ideas amounts to Tezonian hara-kiri.


#35

To be frank, I don’t know where to start. So many misconceptions, it is overwhelming.

“Even if he starts sellng from his gold reserves in exchange of products and services, almost surely he and his descendants/heirs will always be rich”

Actually, many times you will see the 3rd generations being so spoiled that they don’t know how to manage money and become only spenders and do not know how to properly invest.
There are 2 types of cash (money, currencies) - the one coming from capital gain or just saved and the other is from dividends or rental income. Spending the 2nd form for restaurants, travel, hotel means you keep the asset that generates the income, but only spend the income. Spending the first form (savings) means you have less of it after, and if you keep at it, eventually you have none of your capital left. Most lottery winners spend their cash from the first form (they never invested their prize in cash flow producing assets, rather spent it) and end up broke within 6 months to 2 years (proven statistics). Savvy practice is sometimes lost by a 3rd or 4th generations and hence, they end up losing much of the original wealth created by the grandfather/grandmother.
(Of course, there are exceptions, particularly by rich families that builds ties with governments to solidify their businesses monopolistic status - but that’s only reserve for a few of these families, the smaller rich family do not have that benefit - but that’s beyond the scope, it has more to do with all power of the big fat Federal Governments and the litany of regulations)

2nd, for those generations who do know what to do to maintain their wealth, they do so by investing it. As such, they invest in new businesses and new ventures which:

  1. Generates jobs (much better than free money from a “universal income” that will only encourage slackers to keep slacking. There is a sense of accomplishment and of contribution rather than this notion that all is due to them - did you know some dolphins in the gulf don’t even know how to fish anymore, they just follow up boats to be fed by humans which do this for fun)
  2. New investment, new venture means improvement to all. This is why we have stuff today that means poors and lower middle class have a better living style than kings of the middle ages. Believe me, Kings of the middle ages would have love to have running water, hot shower, entertainment from movies, cars…

If you suck up this money from the “rich devils” and force them to be distributed (either via dilution or any form of extortion tax) to all as “universal income”, all it will do is redirect these funds that would have been dedicated to research and investment and instead going towards consumption products. You might also see higher rents as people would redirect these additional funds to a 3 bd apartment rather than a 2 bd apartment. etc

But, as we discussed earlier, the beauty of cryptocurrencies is that we truly have a free market capists system here. All individuals are free to come up with any scheme they want, there is just no guarantee people will follow what you want. So as I said, you could go ahead and create a new Bitcoin that lift the 21 million limit or take over Satoshi’s bitcoins and distribute it in a Universal income. See what will be the traction of this coin.
I can bet, the only interest will be coming from those who will be getting these socialist-bitcoins, but not much interest from those who actually have the wealth. But you are free to try.

So here is a suggestion for you:

  1. register a domain name : universial-bitcoin.com for example
  2. Propose how this redistribution will work - how to make sure this universal income only goes once to each person.
  3. Fork bitcoin, and create a new genesis block out of the bitcoin blockchain where bitcoin addresses with large sums are switch to new bitcoin addresses that could be used to redistribute.
  4. Watch the price and interest.

The beauty of free market capitalism even allows socialists to have their experiment.

Good luck


#36

You have a huge misconception here. Bitcoin and the rest cryptocurrencies cannot be considered as money, there are still collectible items appreciated among IT entrepreneurs, with rather limited circulation.

Gold for example (which is also not money nowdays) has a lot bigger trading volume than cryptocurrencies. And the same applies to many other commodities and collectible items. I assume that even stamps or diamonds may have bigger trading volume than bitcoin.

My arguments are about money, real money that will be used by millions of people in their everyday life, not about commodities or collectible items used by tiny eccentric minorities and hobbyists.

If you want to remain into your echo chamber, if you want to remain small like bitcoin is or like the diamond market is, then dont give a chance to the universal dividend.

You have to reach the masses and make them use your coin in their everyday life, if you want to become money. And this can be done only if your coin approaches the time and space symmetry ideal. Of course It is not in your interest to reach the time and space symmetry ideal, because then you will be no rich anymore! But it is in your inerest to approach it because this will make your coin to circulate. You have to find the golden ratio on it. Bind some amount and give it to the basic income cause and see how it goes. If it goes well, then increase the amount. If not then decrease it.

There is not only black and white, there is not only capitalist bitcoin and socialist bitcoin. You may select grey. This is where crypto faucet stands, faucet is a form of socialism and it is already here in many cryptos. I am talking about faucet 2.0, a faucet that will be implemented in a more serious way, taking into account the proof of individuality. The absent of a proof of individuality was a serious flaw in faucet 1.0.


#37

Boy oh boy.
Just off the bat, I’m curious
What’s your definition of money.
Don’t mix it with currency.
Currency is:

  1. A medium of exchange
  2. divisible
  3. fungible (a unit in your pocket is the same as the one in mind)
  4. durable
  5. portable

And money has all the same a currency plus:
6. limited supply (holds its value over the long term, which does not apply to govt fiat currencies)


#38

Both 6 of them of course, but what was the first one?
Medium of exchange. If you forget that, you forget the most important thing.

In order to achieve the first property in a large scale, a crypto faucet (socialism) is needed.
The flow of the faucet and its functionality (proof of individuality e.t.c.) can be decided and be adjusted accordinly (in an adaptive way) by using the governance mechanisms of tezos.


#39

then how is it we are where we are today, without global socialism


#40

You are in the beginning of your crypto. Socialism is not the beggining. It always follows.

We had 3000 years of capitalism, in order for socialism to occur the last 100 years. But nowdays socialism is much more applicable than capitalism. There is no free market, there are governement regulations everywhere, the rich people are taxed more and more e.t.c. Wanting or not, capitalism is the past, and socialism is the future.

Cryptos will follow the same road. The crypto of the future will tend to be a socialistic crypto, and you cannot escape that fate.


#41

you make claims that have never been proven, and make statements of things that never happened. I just re-checked my Herodotus, and his account of Darius’ often-told discussion on this exact matter of how governments evolve have no discussion of socialism in them.